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okay I
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri two
stories dominate the news Isis and
Greece and we're going to talk about
both on the eve of tomorrow's referendum
in Greece and apparently on the eve of
an imminent decision by the British
Parliament to begin bombing yet another
Arab Muslim country hey what could go
wrong Isis control half of Syria
and much of Iraq their Fighters are
murdering sunbathers on the
Mediterranean beaches worshippers in
Kuwaiti mosques and who knows who what
and where next if anyone on this planet
does know it's Britain's foreign
correspondent of the year and any year
if you ask me the independent newspapers
Patrick Coburn Patrick thanks for
joining us on the Sputnik we showcased
your book the best by far on the Isis
phenomenon the R of Islamic State the
last time you were here uh the problem
is it's continued to rise and Rise how
do you summarize now in what few months
since you were last here what's the
current state of play with
Isis well it's pretty bad in the sense
for Humanity because uh Isis is still
expanding I mean it's a year since they
declared that caliphate on the 29th of
June last year uh since then there have
been lots of uh stories about how it's
uh suffering heavy casualties from
bombing how it's on the retreat how it's
imploding or there's a stale mate but in
may we saw that's not true they defeated
the Iraqi Army at ramadi and they
defeated the Syrian Army at Palmira so
it's still expanding still expanding
even in the Levant but of course
expanding now across the world more to
that but you made the point in the
independent that talk of the liberation
of mosul for example uh the Iraq's Arab
Iraq's Second City uh to was fanciful
that far from retaking moso the
likelihood was that Isis would retake
areas and cities like gradi that had
been so-called liberated it isn't the
problem that the people in these areas
don't much feel that it is a Liberation
for the government in Bagdad to kick out
the Isis perhaps they think each is as
bad as the other or worse I mean I know
people in mosul talk to people from
ramadi and people will say how bad the
Islamic state is how terrified they are
of them and then at a certain point the
conversation will switch and they'll
start saying well what would happen if
the Iraqi Army comes in or the Shia
militia comes in it'll be even worse
it'll be worse with their frightened of
being uh being murdered uh they know if
you're a Sunni there that you'll be
suspected of being an Isis supporter
whatever your views um and they also
know that um Isis is more efficient than
the Iraqi government in ramadi since
they took over uh I was touch with
somebody there um who doesn't much like
them but said the local hospital has
reopened because they brought in doctors
from Syria there's more electricity but
they brought in big generators from raqa
their Syrian capital and from fua so
these guys I mean monsters though they
are are also pretty efficient they know
how to make the the trains run on time
there are natural barriers in a way to
any further Advance by ISIS in Iraq
at least I hope so uh the Kurdish area
would appear more or less impregnable to
them and the Shia Muslim mass in Baghdad
and bazra and areas of the south of Iraq
ditto um but in Syria that's not
true my belief is and again of course
it's the opposite of what I wish to
happen that it is possible that Isis and
other gangs
could be in control of Damascus and thus
of a country with a Mediterranean
shoreline what could go wrong as I joked
earlier is it your belief that the
Syrian state is on the back fruit and
May in the end
capitulate I think we're not quite there
yet um it still has support it also has
a lot of people
uh just like we were saying there are a
lot of Sunni in Iraq who don't much like
Isis uh but are terrified of the
alternative which is the Iraqi
government there are quite a lot of
people in Damascus who don't
particularly like the Assad government
but they're truly terrified of the
alternative in Islamic State because
they think they'll have their heads cut
off uh they think that uh uh they might
may be imprisoned or they'll certainly
lose their job so a lot of people who
are squeezed into the same Cor Corner as
the government who don't necessarily
support it but that's quite a chunk of
the Syrian population so I don't think
it'll go down just like that you have a
sort of very violent stalemate with
neither side capable of overcoming the
other uh and there's not much reason
that this should change I suppose there
could be a sudden collapse on the
government side or they might lose a
city uh big city or something like that
but I think that it's sort of unlikely
that there'll be a dramatic change in
the military situation is it possible
that a de facto state has already been
created in uh the west of Iraq and in
the north and east of Syria and that we
have to come to terms with that perhaps
even
recognizing well I'd like to divide it
into two I mean there's no doubt a state
has been established there it has a
state with a army which is more powerful
than most members of the UN if you talk
to I've been talking to people who've
come from within the self-declared Cal
caliphate and uh they collect taxes uh
there rather efficiently uh they
conscript soldiers they decide the
school uh uh what should be taught at
schools they can defend the so to speak
the frontiers of the caliphate so you
know if this isn't a state what is now
should we recognize it or anything like
that well these guys aren't in the
business of recognizing anybody else
because they want to spread the califate
to all the Muslim world and then all the
world uh so that doesn't is not on the
agenda and also I think it it's a
mistake about the nature of this
movement you know it's like an Islamic
camar Rouge it's a cult and it also has
a a combination a very dangerous
combination of fanaticism religious
fanaticism in this case and Military
expertise drawn on years of fighting the
Americans and the Iraqi Army but the
spreading of the caliphate's already
happening isn't it the uh the boo Haram
in Nigeria have declared Borno to be a
part of it Isis Affiliates in Libya uh
including in s the former home of
Gaddafi have declared themselves to be a
part of it and in Tunisia Isis claims
that the mass mder of tourist on the
beaches was carried out by one of their
men yes I mean the the the Islamic state
is a sort of magnet for groups some of
them you know are probably in contact
with Islamic State others are simply
imitating their tactics they have a very
lethal cocktail of tactics of uh
atrocities committed in very public
places to have Maximum Impact uh and
this is pretty effective uh so you know
if we go from the Pakistan
border uh over to Northeast Nigeria
there are seven wars going on now in
Afghanistan Iraq Syria Yemen Somalia
libia Northeast
Nigeria um and to my mind Isis is it's
the child of war and it uh benefits from
war because this is what it's good at uh
and so long as we have these wars going
on the people who benefit will will be
those uh who are the most extreme like
Islamic State and it will continue to
grow we discuss Isis the phenomenon of
Isis quite regularly on the show but we
rarely get someone from the field like
yourself you've just come from Iraq and
you've been in Syria as well during the
r of Islamic State how is it like for
people living there including yourself
you know reporting from there what's the
impact on the daily lives of the women
the children what's do they go to school
to the markets as usual are
they stay do they stay indoors and well
yeah Isis likes to monopolize par uh
politically but also over the lives of
everybody living under its rule so quite
early on it was determining what the
curriculum would be in schools so art
and history were out
uh geography could be taught but not
National out not National boundaries
only Regional
geography
um Pagan poetry poetry was allowed but
not Pagan poetry which you probably
means most poetry anyway this is one
example every aspect of life is
controlled by them if a woman goes out
unaccompanied by a male relative then
Isis Fighters or officials will take her
back to the house ask for the husband
uh to come out and we'll give him 80
lashes uh
Barbers uh when they took uh fua early
last year they um closed down most of
the barber
shops uh and um my newspaper was talking
to one Barber yeah uh from there who uh
he gave his cousin on his cousin's
wedding day a rather Western hair
haircut in return for which somebody
informed on him they uh gave him 80
lashes he fainted after 50 lashes and
had to be taken to a hospital and they
closed his barber shop so every aspect
of life is controlled by them uh people
don't like it but there's not much they
can do about it they they'll end up
crucified or beheaded or uh all these uh
hideous ways that they have reinvented I
should say uh to murder people
Patrick cin I wish we could talk all day
thanks very much for joining us on the
Sputnik read his book if you haven't
already the rise of Islamic State coming
up after this break who knew that Greece
could be the Achilles heal of the entire
European project well most people
actually and we'll be discussing why
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next welcome back to what is rapidly
becoming a classic addition of Sputnik
barely 3 years after winning the Nobel
Peace Prize the European Union appears
to be at War again this time in
full-blown economic conflict with one of
its own founding members Greece which
presently endures in effect an economic
embargo preventing its banks from
opening the origins of the conflict
partly rest with the euro currency
itself the Euro or more particularly the
Practical compulsion on most members
States to join it was fatally flawed as
a project subsuming widely disperate
economies and accounting standards into
a single currency with a single Central
Bank and a single set of neoliberal free
market
dogmas Greece with the help of Goldman
Sachs falsified its financial position
in order to gain entry to the European
monetary Union and the rest is history
as might be the European Union at this
rate to discuss the grexit or not Alex
andreo actor and guardian writer joins
us now Alex thanks for uh coming on
board the Sputnik tomorrow is the big
day the referendum first of all what's
your take on how that referendum is
going to go and if you like your opinion
on how it should go it's extremely
unpredictable um there there seems to be
quite a a high percentage where the no
is leading which is basically saying no
to the agreement that was offered but uh
you have to understand that with every
passing day Capital controls um you know
people queuing up to get 60 EUR out um
the country is paralyzed more and more
and that Terror that fear will play a
part in the yes and NOS um as well as
the fact that the the private media in
grease is
incredibly biased against the government
because they're um you know they're
owned by very rich people who actually
owe money in license fees and Taxation
and this government is going after them
so they have a very clear agenda against
Sy um and so there is Relentless
propaganda and an economic asphixiation
going on so my very very tentative
prediction is that we will end up with a
very narrow um Victory I don't know for
which side but I think it will narrow
down which is a disaster for either side
actually what you want is a
decisive uh vote for either yes or no
what you don't want is a close result
because that simply divides the country
in two Relentless propaganda internally
no doubt from the private sector media
and quite a bit of it from outside yeah
I must say uh though some may find this
a controversial point to make given the
modern history of Germany and Greece uh
I find the sight of a German chancellor
issuing dictat to the Greek people to be
profoundly offensive and I'm surprised
that given that history that the Germans
have not taken a self-denying ordinance
at least in public pronouncements on
this how do Greek people feel
about being threatened and warned like
this can I just add before that question
cuz that we early this morning we saw a
picture from 1953 where the Greek BM was
signed off 50% the haircut for Germany
yeah yeah that's been going uh
personally I don't think that is a
helpful Avenue simply because uh we want
to get away from
blaming a country as a
totality for the sins of its leaders
especially for the sins of its leaders
in the distant past because that is an
attitude that feeds very negatively into
the Greek situation one of the obstacles
with resolving the Greek situation is
that that people say but Greece
falsified its accounts to get into the
Euro but Greece borrowed irresponsibly
but Greece spent the money and I think
what's useful to do is to separate
actually who did those things it wasn't
Greece as a total you know it wasn't the
cleaners and the teachers that took the
money and and you know lived the high
life it was actually a a a mendacious
and corrupt government of many years ago
now if you accept that um then you still
have to take responsibility as a country
I think because you elected those people
but what people must understand is that
the corruption and the overspending that
went on in the past four
decades is the reason why Greece was a
ripe victim for financial markets to
speculate on but it's not what caused
the crisis you know Greek train drivers
retiring early did not cause lean
Brothers to collapse um having too many
nurses did not cause uh currency
speculators as angular Merkel herself um
identified in 2011 she made a speech in
febu February 2011 in Hamburg where she
said the very institutions that we went
into debt to bail out are now using that
money to speculate against the currency
and that's a very difficult thing to
explain to a democratic people who
should trust us those were her words
precisely now that narrative seems to
have disappeared because it is
inconvenient and it is difficult to
explain and it's been replaced instead
by this idea that you know um people
going for a siesta in the afternoon when
it's too hot that's responsible for the
trouble Europe is in but it isn't it
isn't and to fall for that I think is
very dangerous because there's a
systemic flaw inside the Euro you know
you have countries that do not have
their their hands on the monetary levers
that mean they can deflate their
currency if their if their economy is
suffering and once Greece is dealt with
whatever way that is either it is
punished and put in a corner or it's
thrown out of the yearo or it accepts
every measure Under the Sun and and uh
is forgotten about they will move on to
the next weakest link they will move on
to Portugal they will move on to Ireland
well the the IR F themselves in their
own leaked documents acknowledge that uh
that it would be
2030 before uh Greece would be out of
the woods if it accepts this
prescription and secondly the point as
you rightly imply that has been entirely
missed is that the Greek people were not
given any of this money I think about
10% actually is the figure 10% of the
total bailout funds
has not gone to private to bail out
private French and German banks yes so
in fact the EU is giving money to GRE
money to but in fact it's not to gree
it's to their own bank absolutely it is
the continuation of the bailout that
started in 2008 it's just because people
were rioting in the streets the the a
mechanism has be been found to sort of
um do it via a country and conveniently
also asset strip that that country while
it's all going on you know our telephone
uh company was the first to be sold
highly profitable uh went to a a German
conglomerate um on a price that many
considered to be very very
undervalue
now when people see that they become
angry people passionately believe in the
European project I passionately believe
in the European project project but not
what it has become um and so in that
situation you have the the the
troa sort of coming into the country and
saying uh as a sort of benevolent um
Force listen things are really bad but
if you follow these steps you'll come
out of this difficulty and 5 years on
the debt instead of 120% of GDP is now
180 % of GDP the economy has contracted
by a quarter I mean I don't know and a
quarter of the people are unemployed a
quarter of the people 54% of people
under 24 we're talking about an entire
generation of people who who are are who
which is lost now you know you go to
Athens people are looking in rubbish
beins for food it's not it's that's the
reality that's the reality and so when
people then are told by the very same
institutions no okay we were wrong then
but no this time definitely you should
follow what we say there is a lack of
trust there isn't just there's this idea
that there's a lack of trust that flows
only from the institution towards Greece
because it's seen as a sort of naught
socialist child you know there is a huge
lack of trust flowing from Greece
towards the institution now if if Sara
loses tomorrow uh it'll it will not be
long before they're out of power I seem
so yeah but as you say if the vote is
narrow the polarization inside Greece is
going to be extreme yeah and even if
Sara Falls from Power they're not going
to go away and the arguments they've
been mounting are not going to be uh
going away are you are you anxious about
that I'm I'm anxious because we have a
history of of civil conflict you know
and I think everyone is anxious about
that I hope that we've moved on from
that I hope that we can you know tear
strips out of each other and hover
arguments with words and it stops there
um but even even to look at you know the
the people from the various opposition
parties lining up on TV and and making
these emotional speeches that we must
vote Yes to Europe you know for our for
our children's sake and these are the
same people that you know pillaged this
country for four decades like a plague
of locusts
the these corrupt governments absolutely
destroyed the country and the EU now
accepting that corruption is the biggest
thing that needs to be tackled in Greece
should be cheering for Sira for a party
which although it doesn't disagree with
it although it doesn't agree with its
ideology it's at least clean you know
it's an honest party it doesn't have its
fingers in all sorts of pies and instead
it's helping reinstall the same people
who caused all of these problems and
that me sends a very clear message that
they would rather have someone obedient
but corrupt in power rather than someone
honest but actually freeth thinking well
I couldn't put that better myself and
there's no time for me to try Alex thank
you very much and the best of luck to
Greece
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and now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media what's rattling guy about Isis Leo
ohagen says one and religion problem
solved two regarding the Greek problem a
Greek friend once told me that fakes
contain virtually all you need to
survive throwing olives and feta cheese
problem solve and that's all that we've
got for this week which alas means
that's the end of the show but you can
stay in touch with us on Twitter at rtor
Sputnik and on Facebook Sputnik on
Russia today it's goodbye from me G and
from me George Galloway it's been
marvelous
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